History 4
④ The Kami series overturns the image of wood
Sasaki: Finally, the Kami series. Was the Kami series the starting point for change for Takahashi Kogei?
Daiji: It's the starting point, and I think Kami glass is the one thing that Takahashi Kogei must preserve. Depending on the situation and the times, I think it's unavoidable if Kakudo is discontinued, but I don't think Kami should be discontinued.
Sasaki: Everyone was saying that they wondered, "Is it really necessary to make industrially shaped glasses out of wood?"
Daiji: Kami's designs are interesting and paradoxical. By deliberately creating shapes that don't resemble wood, it sheds a light on what wood is all about. That's what makes it so interesting, I think. It's like being liberated from the idea of "woodiness" that had bound it up until then. Since then, many imitations of Kami glass have appeared, but Takahashi's boldness and determination were the starting point. I think that liberation from the idea of woodiness is what the Kami series has left in the history of woodworking.
Sasaki: I wouldn't say that the shape makes the most of the wood's natural characteristics.
Ono: That was actually a good thing.
Daiji: It expanded the possibilities of wood.
Ono: I'm sure Takahashi was able to accept it and think, "Oh, I see, I can create whatever I want!"
Sasaki: When you first started making Kami Glass, did you think, "This is it!"?
Takahashi: When craft buyer Hino Akiko (Studio Mokko) was working at Matsuya Shoji, one of her seniors was Sato Hiromi (Craft & Planning). Sato said, "It would be interesting if we could make glass out of wood as thin as a bento box." At first, she asked me to try making something 0.9 mm thick. "If you can turn something 1 mm thick on a potter's wheel, no one can do that, so Takahashi, do it!" (laughs). 0.9 mm is impossible no matter how you look at it, but she said it would be interesting if we could make something like that. We started making prototypes in 2003, just to give it a go. It took about two years to come to fruition.
Sasaki: Two years! It wouldn't be strange if you gave up halfway through.
Takahashi: No, I couldn't do it at all. Kami glass is made by carving the inside and outside of a cylindrical piece of wood, but it's really difficult to carve the inside cleanly and steadily... I choose a blade by thinking about how to carve the inside, but even the slightest vibration means it won't work. I try to smooth out the rough cuts with sandpaper, but the thickness just won't be consistent. I have a blade shop machine a new wheel blade, and I try to carve it in the workshop, but it just won't work. I make a blade every two months, carve it, and it just won't work... I repeated this process over and over again.
Sasaki: I feel like giving up...
Takahashi: At the moment I thought I might not be able to do it...that this was just impossible...I thought, "Ah! Maybe with this blade..." I threw away all my previous image of a potter's wheel blade and tried to think mechanically, which is how I carved it now. After repeated failures, I gradually got annoyed, and it ignited my passion (laughs). I was determined to make it, so I reset all my previous image of a blade and thought completely mechanically. When I actually carved it, it went smoothly, and I aimed for a thickness of 0.9 mm. I could get it to a little over 1 mm, but it was too soft, and even if I painted it, it would crack easily and become unusable. I gradually added thickness, and I thought that if it was this thickness, everyone would be able to use it, so I got to 2 mm. It took me two years to finally achieve this.
Sasaki: What was the market reaction when it was finally completed and unveiled?
Takahashi: We finally released it in 2005, but people were like, "Huh? Is this made of wood?" (laughs). We barely sold anything for two years, and then it finally started to attract attention in 2007 with the "NIPPON VISION" project by D&DEPARTMENT. I think we took it to Tokyo Big Sight in 2005 and named it "Paper Glass," using the kanji for "paper." It was inspired by a paper cup, so people just said, "This is paper!" and put it down and that was it (laughs). Even when people picked it up and told us it was made of wood, they just said, "Oh, it's made of wood," and that was it. At the time, the only wooden cups available were Finnish kuksa and lacquerware, and no matter which shops came, there was no precedent for whether a wooden cup could be used, so no one was interested. The following year, we tried various things to get people interested, but the conversation kept going, "Hmm, can it be used? Is it okay to put drinks in it?"... and that was the end of it for that year. In 2005, we sold about 50 Kami glasses. The following year, we sold about 200.
Sasaki: So it didn't suddenly become a hit?
Takahashi: They really weren't selling, they just weren't selling. So when Ono-san and Daiji-san first came, the first thing we said was that we could create the design, but we just couldn't get to the point of selling it, so we wanted to work together on that. In other words, up until now, designers have only thought about it and been able to create it, but they didn't know what to do after that. In that respect, even if we create something like this, it's up to Daiji-san and the other product designers to handle the branding and how to communicate it to stores, and we wanted to work together on that aspect as well; otherwise, the same thing will probably happen again if people like us team up with designers in the future. In the end, if we can team up with designers (not just to create it) and think about how to display it and which stores (we want to sell it to), it will be easier for us as creators to work together if they think about where it will sell.
Sasaki: Mr. Ono and Mr. Daiji, you first met a good person .
Ono: I think so.
Takahashi: At first, Ono-san and Daiji-san went to look at a lot of different stores.
Daiji: That's right. That experience is still with me today, and when I work with other manufacturers, I always go to see their stores together.
Ono: I'll definitely invite you to Tokyo to see the store.
Takahashi: We want to get it into this store, but how can we display it to get it into that store? Ono and Daiji worked hard at gift shows to come up with a way to display it that would attract shop owners' attention, and thanks to that, little by little, people started to recognize our products and we started to get them in stores.
Sasaki: Did you ever find it difficult to work with the Kami series, which had already been created before Daiji and Ono became involved with Takahashi Kogei?
Daiji: It's extremely difficult (laughs).
All: lol
Daiji: It was incredibly difficult. The image of Kami Glass is very strong, so I was trying to think of ways to avoid any discrepancies with it, and while making the mug and plate, I was also trying to think of ways to strike a balance between functionality and other factors, so it took a lot of thought and design to get a little queasy. I was working on the Kami Mug design and Rin was working on the Cara Mug design at the same time, so we showed each other our designs and discussed whether they were appropriate for our respective series and for Takahashi Kogei.
Sasaki: The Kami series was a bit of a thorn in Daiji and Ono's side, so it was a process of us establishing it and then designing it ourselves.
Daiji: I'd seen Kami Glass in sales areas and at events, but it didn't seem like it was being used much (laughs). I was wondering how to best communicate this to customers. I thought it was beautiful and wonderful, but I was thinking about what was preventing customers from understanding it when I was in sales. That may have been the background to it.
Sasaki: Looking back, were you able to do what you wanted to do at the time?
Daiji: I think it happened, and there's nothing more to say. (Laughs) I think Takahashi Kogei's work will remain in history. I don't think it has anything to do with the designer's skill at all, but rather the fact that the timing, the era, and the fact that these three people met were all miracles.
Sasaki: So you were working on Cara and Kakudo and then you put together Kami as well?
Daiji: The Kami series was almost complete. I happened to be in charge of deciding on a theme each year and redoing the mugs and Obon, so I don't really feel like I was in charge of Kami.
Sasaki: It feels like that happened.
Daiji: Right. There's something missing, but Rin, who should do it? I want to do it! That's like that.
Ono: Come to think of it, around the time Daiji was making the prototype for the Kami Plate, Takahashi's father finally acknowledged him. (Laughs) I was working on a prototype for another project, and Daiji was the only one left in Takahashi's workshop to continue making prototypes. Then Takahashi's father went salmon fishing and caught a lot of salmon roe, so he told Daiji to have salmon roe rice, and he made salmon roe rice for him. (Laughs)
Daiji: lol
Ono: Daiji said, "My dad finally acknowledged me." (laughs)
Daiji: Ahahaha
Ono: When I met up with him in the evening, he said, "Okay, bring some salmon roe for dinner," and gave me a Tupperware container full of salmon roe. (laughs)
Daiji: I remember that somehow. (laughs)
Sasaki: I wonder what made you think that your kids were different.
Takahashi: Well, it's not just about dropping in once, but coming multiple times, greeting people properly, and not being pushy.
All: lol
Takahashi: I mean, you can tell when someone is working hard and seriously by watching them, right? You can tell that these people are different. My father is a craftsman too, and has that kind of personality, but as I watched them, I realized that they weren't bad people, that they were good kids. (Inaudible after this) On the contrary, they're like, "I haven't seen you around lately. What are you doing?" (laughs) My father also thinks of me as a member of the family, and my mother also says, "The number of coronavirus cases in Tokyo is increasing, I wonder if everyone is okay?"
Ono: That's a good thing.